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creating a success signal

stanley skupsky
stanley

January 2, 2017 at 10:44am

I'm missing something. When Tyler uses 'yes' for success he doesn't want the dog to move out of place. It is a duration marker. But then he has a segment on making the dog chase the food to increase motivation.  Clearly this makes the dog move out of place. Please elaborate.

Tori Wheeler
Tori

January 3, 2017 at 1:31pm

Not quite. What I believe he's doing is marking the moment the dog does something right, just without necessarily allowing the dog to break position. Sometimes people use the word "yes" in that manner. In later videos he talks about using the word "break" as a release marker. Does that make more sense?

 

~Tori 

stanley skupsky
stanley

January 3, 2017 at 4:42pm

The dog breaks position when he chases the food.

Eduardo  da Silva Cunha
Eduardo

January 3, 2017 at 6:45pm

Well, what I understood is that the chasing video is just for dogs that don't have enough motivation and need to increase their motivation before we can start the training process and that is like he said with client or pet dogs sometimes we wil,l have grey areas and that isn't a big problem. Later when he start the formal training he starts to use the marker as a keep going signal or a duration marker that means keep your position that I'm going to give you a treat. The difference betwen use the "yes" marker as the release signal that sport trainers do and use the "break" marker is that when they use the yes they release the dog to take the reward and when Tyler refers to the break signal it just means to the dog he is free and can stop the behavior he was doing. The most important in my opinion is that the dog understands that when I say yes he will receive a treat or a toy or whatever he wants and that if he keep doing the behavior maybe I'll say it again. As I said just my opinion about what I watched in this course and what I have learned in Leerburg's dvds.

Christina Stockinger
Christina

January 4, 2017 at 2:06pm

That's what confused me about Tylers use of the markers. For me - as I have learned it in LB courses and DVDs the duration marker doesn't mean the dog is free and can stop his behavior. The duration marker would tell the dog that it is well what he is doing and that he should go on doing this until the release marker (yes, ok....) comes. Tyler is the first one from those I know, who uses it i differently. Nothing wrong with this of course as long as it works and is done consistently.Just another way, but confuses a bit after having worked so long with TMs and DMs.

Tori Wheeler
Tori

January 5, 2017 at 3:25am

To Stanley - I said necessarily. Eduardo's answer is a good one. 

To Eduardo - It sounds like you're referring to Michael's revised version of How to Train Dogs with Food. 

I will reiterate that it's just a matter of different styles and personal preference.

Eduardo  da Silva Cunha
Eduardo

January 5, 2017 at 11:01am

Actually I referred more to the first version of How to Train Dogs with food and also other dvds specially heeler's toolbox and power of training dogs with markers. I think it's more about your goals than preference. With a pet dog you will probably want a calm and relaxed dog than an super motivated dog as you would like with an sport dog. My opinion is that if you use a reward marker as an release marker the dog will want to break position in order to take a treat what will create a super engaged dog and with a marker like this that Tyler use the dog doesn't have a "why" to go out and break position because the food is coming and it creates a more relaxed behavior.
I hope my english is at least ok

Christina Stockinger
Christina

January 6, 2017 at 7:27am

You're English is certainly much more than only ok!. Much better than mine.

To the topic: I also think, the different styles are more about the goals.

I though don't really like that Tyler doesn't give the dog a reason to break the position. I find the dog should know clearly the exercise is over. He can now do what he wants until Ihe recieves a new command. A good thing to have a pause between the exercises, some movement and getting the head free from the previous exercise. It loosens up the mind and body of the dog. That's the reason why most trainers don't simply dispense the food but make out of the delivery a reward event.

I also as a pet owner want a super motivated dog. during training, playing etc. Of course its different than with a sport dog. They are from their trainers thoroughly selected testing their characterics, temperaments etc. and then trained over time more intensely and also with more and more advanced methods.

 

 

stanley skupsky
stanley

January 6, 2017 at 4:59pm

Just a couple of thoughts on the different styles. I think the main difference is related to how long you want the training sessions to be. Tyler's approach of not giving a reward upon breaking necessarily will keep the training sessions short. It will work  until the dog stops being engaged. Tyler's segment 'developing food motivation' mentions some of the other LB videos that use food as a game or 'reward event' to keep the dog going and increase engagement. His segment on chasing food is an example. But he does not show how this can be done without giving a break command and then a treat.  It seems to me that increasing engagement time (ie training time) is not central to Tyler's approach. It would  work for most pet owners who do not want to put a lot of time into training and are not too concerned about how long it takes to train the dog or want only a limited amount of training. Also, I don't think that giving food as part of the release command will make the dog want to release the position. He only gets the food if he releases when he is told to release. On the other hand, why should the dog hold a position without receiving food upon release: it would make no difference whether he holds or not, because either way he would not get a treat.

Eduardo  da Silva Cunha
Eduardo

January 14, 2017 at 10:53am

Because when he keep the position he will receive a treat, maybe not right now but at any moment he will...I don't think his system doesn't work with longer time, I think that for him engagement is not SO important because when the dog doesn't obey he corrects the dog or use leash pressure(part 2) and in some of other videos from LB just when the training is almost complete the correction is aplyed

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