Hey everyone! I thought I'd get  a discussion going on the sit-stay. Firstly, I feel like I should give a little history of Roland and myself. My girlfriend and I adopted Roland through the local animal shelter 2 years ago in August. He was a lanky, 10 month old, "mixed breed" who was "SUPER FRIENDLY." Yes, he was super friendly, with humans. At the time, I was working in the health care industry, I knew NOTHING of dog training, Roland was to be my companion and toe dip into the world of having a family companion. 

Onto our first walk; there's a neighborhood dog, Roland goes ballistic, doing everything he can to murder this dog. This happens day in and day out for a week before I seek professional help. Fast forward a year and I am now working with the guys who helped me train my dog. Back in September I attended the IACP conference and was able to sit down and have dinner and drinks with Bart Bellon, Michael Ellis, and Brother Christopher (from the monks of New Skete) and the thing that really resonated to me was the amount of heart and soul their  dogs give to them when they are training, and how much they get back from their dogs. Regardless of the breed, these dogs LOVE doing anything for their humans. A noble heart is something I believe can be taught and instilled in a dog...I know Bart agrees, and I'm willing to bet Michael, and Brother Chris do as well.

What does this have to do with the sit-stay...well. As you can probably tell, Roland has an immense amount of energy, and without anywhere to put it, it used to come out as leash aggression. Having a command for your dog to relax in a certain spot is something we all have, it's nice to cook dinner without your dog being under your feet, and in these cases, why should we care if our dog is sitting, or holding a down position. Certainly it's more comfortable for our dog to lie down if they are going to be in a spot for an extended period of time, even for 3 minutes. The "down" position can be very vulnerable for dogs; a reactive dog like Roland, putting him in a down while a dog is near is asking for a problem. 

When we tell our dogs to sit, what we are fundamentally asking is for the dog to stay stationary. Having a dog sit, and stay in said sit, requires self discipline, and a level of attentiveness that not many of us really ask of our dogs. It's a physically and mentally demanding task for our dogs to do EXACTLY what we've told them to do. I view the sit-stay as character building. Much like the poster hanging on my wall. It doesnt serve a functional purpose, but it adds to the integrity, and feel of my room. It pays dividends for my dog to sit, without fidgeting, without going into a down. It shows, in my opinion, that Roland looks to me as a leader, as someone worth listening to, and someone he wants to perform for. Im his ride or die dude, and if I say "Sitta" (Swedish for sit) he sits, because not only is he technically required to, but he WANTS to. He performs this task with heart and soul...who cares if it's a simple behavior, like "sit". He sits and he means it! This character building exercise has created trust, and a trust worthy companion for not only me, but also for Roland. So instilling such a simple behavior, gives Roland something to do, and concentrate on, other than trying to murder dogs (which he no longer does, always trying to party.) 

I realize this is awfully verbose, but I love talking about dogs and I hope this encourages you all to think about training a lot. I owe an awful lot to Roland, he took me from working a desk job, I absolutely despised, to helping people deal with their problem dogs, so I feel as if I owe it to him to put in the amount of heart and soul into my training as he does with his "sit."

Wow David, what an incredible story!  You can really see the amazing partnership in your videos with Roland.

The sit for Elsa and I started as something I saw as problematic when I was taking a clicker training course. The dog had to reliably respond to different cues (they would look for aspects of those cues like low latency, speed precision etc.)  Sit was one I chose because I had shaped it and it had a history being heavily rewarded.  In our first workshop we struggled so badly with it I took it out of the behaviour chain and had toss in a different cue at the last minute to complete my requirement.  I started playing around with it and realized she did not want to sit quickly or hold the sit because she was sore (slippery flooring at the workshop, growing puppy, had been found starved then spayed at 4 mo before I had adopted her, conformation etc.)  I ended up taking her to Physio and they suggested a lot of sits and hind end exercises to build up her glut strength.  So I re-taught sit through lure reward, always marking and rewarding the straightest ones.

 It's funny you brought it up because at the time I thought, it's not necessary that she sit, especially for the course I was taking and she isn't going to be an obedience dog anyway. After the physio stuff it turned out to be something she physically needed and is more comfortable for her now that she has built some strength and stability.  Anyway, just another interesting take on the "sit".  Who knew it could be so much more than just "park your butt on the ground".  

Sit; confidence builder, character builder, body builder!

Learning and observing to a range of trainers across multiple scenarios I now can't think of sit as sit.  My first question is the purpose of the sit?  is it for shorter duration, precision and anticipation of movement such as for obedience heeling etc or is it sit with expectation of settling for some period of time?  Does your picture of what these look like differ - if not good, if yes then start training for that goal.  It might be more relaxed and stable for the sit stay and more anticipatory - about to explode into movement for the other.  Up to you.  But know what you want, differentiate between different pictures and consider training them differently and giving them even slightly different cues.

The other thing I've found as a major difference in people's approach is whether they consider sit as the cue to stay in that position until told otherwise (next cue or release) or whether they use another cue to stay/wait (and some even differentiate between the uses of these - wait I will return to you versus stay I will call you to me - or for some simply which foot they move away from the dog with first. 

So much for a simple behaviour......!!!

David - agree for a dog into action it's a major self control exercise.  For some others it's about confidence.  That's the beauty of working with animals - every one of them is different. The beauty of learning more about animal training/learning is how to look at behaviour at a depth and from angles you otherwise would't consider.  Love it - thanks for sharing.

Thanks so much for sharing that David. As soon as I saw the words sit-stay on the program I felt a little bit edgy!

I'm a laid back owner in a slightly chaotic home so I honestly don't really notice dogs moving around unless they are being really rude or annoying!

I'm probably also a bit more fidgety than I care to admit. I'm not physically hyperactive (shame..I'd be skinnier!!) but I'm possibly a bit mentally and find it so tedious just standing there watching my dog not move..30 seconds becomes an eternity...

You have added meaning to the sit-stay for me. I can spend that time reflecting on  building character and building the relationship, for myself and for the Queen of Fidgeting Miss Vivid!!

Wonderful story, so honoured to be doing this class with people like you. 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I never thought the "sit" could be some useful for therapy either!

Interesting thoughts on the "stay" Leanne! The way I train involves implied stays for commands. So place, down, sit, under, walk are all commands that are to continue until I release Roland. Regardless of which foot I step with. I know Bart Bellon trains that a step with his left foot means heel, and right foot means stay.

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on the "stay" as well. I think of "stay" as an inaction. Meaning everything we teach our dogs is an action...sit, down, whatever. I dont necessarily think its possible to teach inaction..so I just teach sit means sit, until told otherwise.

@David - i also use an implied stay although i think of it more as a command + focus. As in the expectation i have for Sen is that she perform the behavior, then watch me and wait. This works pretty well when Sen is in training mode but not so well in the "real world."

What i mean is, i find Sen is willing to hold a position when the expectation is that there will be a next command, treat, toy, etc. But if i am in my kitchen making dinner and i put her in a down, 9 times out of 10 she will break position in short order because she knows my attention has turned to chopping onions or whatever.  I have recently started to avoid giving her commands in "real life" situations because i know i cant pay attention to her and reinforce the behavior I want. I actually feel like asking her to perform in these situations undermines our training. I've taken to just putting her in an x-pen or blocking off some portion of a room with a gate so that she can chill with no expectations while i am otherwise engaged. 

Anyone do something similar? Or do yalls dogs have enough self control to maintain a commanded position even when being largely ignored. 

Also - @David my story with Sen is very similar to yours. I adopted her when she was two years old from a local shelter. She was super sweet but on our first trip to the dog park she went bananas trying to attack the other dogs. I realized i had a problem on my hands. Thus started my adventure into learning how to work with dogs. I'm not ready to make the jump into professional training but it is definitely an appealing idea to me.  Big ups to you for sticking with Roland and investing time into learning how to work with him. I volunteer at a local MSPCA and see a lot of great dogs who are given up for simpler problems than aggression. It is rare for people to be patient with both themselves and their dogs as they learn to work through issues. 

Love reading your stories, guys!

I am not always consistent with my releases (bad me!), so I like to use "stay" when I want my dog to hold its position. If I'm training and I want the dog to keep going, I will say "good sit" or "good drop" rather than "good stay".

Scott-  To teach my dog "real life" sit-stay, where I don't have to give him attention to keep him in it, I do blind-sit-stays/downs.  Starting I'd put him on a Kuranda dog bed (He was taught to stay on it with a "Bed" cue) walk around a corner for second or two come back and +R/-P. Fade bed and extend time.  Also what helped was the longer the stay the bigger the jackpot. Or even better start off just turning your back to the sit-stay using your phones selfie camera to catch and mark +R/-P.  Sorry if this wasnt helpful, I have insomnia and thought I'd chime in.

Fascinating thread all!  Thanks for taking the time.